1 From: Boris Kraut <krt@nurfuerspam.de>
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2 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 15:16:45 +0100
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4 Message-ID: <20131224151645.NNDxsg@trauerweide>
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8 To: undisclosed-recipients: ;
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9 Subject: [.plan] Interview im Dazed & Confused Magazine
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10 Reply-To: Boris Kraut <krt@nurfuerspam.de>
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12 Anfang des Jahres kam eine Anfrage von Stephen Fortune, Tech Editor
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13 beim Dazed&Confused Magazine [0], ob man von Seiten des "Chaos macht
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14 Schule"-Projekts zu einem Interview bereit waere. Wir haben damals
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15 natuerlich gern geantwortet, auch wenn es das ganze dann am Ende
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16 nicht in die finale Ausgabe (Juni 2013 bzw. "Hacktivism"-Sonderheft,
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17 wenn jemand nachschauen kann/will) oder DazedDigital [1] geschafft
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18 hat. Wie dem auch sei, hier ist die Rohversion aus dem Etherpad --
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19 entsprechend koennen also noch viele Fehler, unuebersetzte Teile oder
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20 Arbeitskommentare drin sein, aber ich denke man kann damit etwas
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21 anfangen. Inhaltlich ist da einiges von mir drin, aber es gibt auch
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22 Fragen an denen ich ueberhaupt nicht mitgearbeitet habe. Ich glaube
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23 man kann mich aber ganz gut rauslesen:
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26 > What do children who participate in the hack camp learn?
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28 They learn about electronics, computer security, and media literacy. Our
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29 workshops range from soldering little electronic insects, music boxes
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30 and similar gadgets they can take home over real-life security
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31 demonstrations of email to plain talks and Q&A session about social
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32 networks, sharing music legally etc.
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35 > What tools/devices to they get to use?
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37 Well, it really depends on the age. Some never used a screwdriver, so we
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38 just let them open some pc (or other devices), look inside and
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39 connect/disconnect the cables, but most children will take a workshop on
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40 how to solder simple circuits with e.g. a battery, a resistor, a LED and
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41 a small motor. We love it when they built their own things and gadgets
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42 to take home with them: "It makes noise, it blinks and I have built it
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43 my own!" It can't get any better, can it?
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46 > Are educational video games used to communicate the concepts of
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49 The whole educational community is going crazy about all those new shiny
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50 toys: MOOCs, video tutoring, gamification. We like those ideas and use
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51 them if it's appropriate. We also once had a visit by
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52 https://primerlabs.com/unityversity which was quite nice and looks
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53 interesting. However, while all these possibilities are great if you
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54 have or want to learn on your own, we deeply believe in "personal
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55 education", meaning that you have someone there to help and mentor you
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56 if needed. And one last thing: Just because it's about learning, doesn't
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57 mean it can't be the next Facebook.
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60 > What range of activities do they partake in over the course of the camp?
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62 The Camp is "only" the playground, the infrastructure for the visitors.
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63 Chaos macht Schule won't have a special project-place on the camp (as
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64 far as I know), but some members will be there and participate.
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67 > Do they learn how to unlock devices?
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69 Unlocking devices always has the risk of bricking them. Even if you tell
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70 attendees, some won't realize it. We don't want a kid which can't afford
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71 a new smartphone to leave with a unusable device afterwards. So, no, we
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72 don't do this with people who come by for only a 2 hr workshop. The main
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73 goal is not to show how to unlock anything; the main goal is to explain
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74 and let them understand how things work. If they find a way to
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75 creatively circumvent a lock (eg, the famous kingston lock with the
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76 paper tube), that's fine - but this isn't the goal of any workshop.
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79 > Will the Raspberry Pi feature prominently in this years camp?
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81 This years camp is organized by the Dutch hacker scene and the CCC only
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82 takes part in form of its members visiting. What will be presented at
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83 the camp depends mostly on its visitors. If there are people bringing
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84 their Raspberry Pi's and building awesome installations, then yes. The
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85 Pi is, in our eyes, just another tool; it is a great possibility to show
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86 and use physical computing, but not suitable for children who are only
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87 attending a 2hrs workshop where they should learn soldering or similar
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88 activities. It is great for learn how to program, though.
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90 Since we were in need for some easy-to-understand and easy-to-build
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91 hardware platform before the Raspberry Pi, a group of the CCC developed
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92 the so-called "Pentabug" (circuit design and software here:
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93 https://github.com/c3d2/pentabug), a small computer which can be
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94 assembled even by young kids; there is a fun default software which can
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95 be the basis for first programming experiments as well.
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98 > Are you still learning as you go, or do you bring in educators that
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99 > specialise in teaching coding to children?
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101 Chaos macht Schule is a project which is very good for 'new' hackers who
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102 do not trust their skills much yet. Because every little bit of
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103 knowledge we have is much more than any pupil in early middleschool has.
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104 So, yes, we learn as we go, especially the skills of how to work with
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105 kids and teach topics in an understandable way. However, some of our
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106 fellow hackers are indeed student and profressional teachers in their
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110 > How much self reliance do kids learn from the camp?
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112 We'd like to see their self reliance going up and encourage them to
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113 explore things on their own, make mistakes and figure out what went
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114 wrong and how to fix it. However, there are some risks we have to advise
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115 and take proactive cautions against, e.g. dangers, like burning skin
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116 while soldering. We also make it clear, that (in the programming world)
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117 bad programs can affect performance or even destroy data -- not only for
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118 themselves, but for others, too.
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121 > CCC seems closely aligned to 'black hat' coding practices -- how is
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122 > that philosophy communicated to children?
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124 We don't see ourselves as blackhats. However, the picture of hackers in
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125 general might be different. So, especially when visiting schools and
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126 other public institutions, we are sometimes faced by fear. Teachers and
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127 parents have concerns, that we might show or do 'bad things', while the
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128 kids are eager to know 'how to hack' a computer game, a web services or
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129 the schools database. Usually we give both sides the whole run down on
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130 the difference between black and white hackers, the hacker ethics our
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131 club is based on and explain why we would do certain things, but not
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132 other things. We make it clear that our intent is not to break any laws
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133 or take personal advantage of the results of a hack, but to make the
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134 world a better place by showing flaws, spreading the word about it,
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135 discussing them widely and fixing them.
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137 Beyond that, our activities with young children focus on the creative
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138 side of life; they are about having fun with creating ones own hardware
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139 and software and about lowering the hurdle of getting in touch with
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140 technology. Children should see computer technology and electronics as
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141 building platform for creative and fun experiments, not as a magic black
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144 In discussions we try to "lead" the discussion a way that they find an
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145 ethical way by themselves -- don't do bad things to other persons you
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146 don't want to receive for yourself; or don't publish things just for the
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147 fun of it because it may hurt other people. It is one of our most
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148 important messages that there is a difference between hacking and
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149 Cracking - and that the philosophy of the club is and always was to
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150 protect private data and to publish/use public data.
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153 > Are children of different ages taught different things?
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155 While our overall goals and principles stay the same, we use different
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156 methods and subjects depending on the audience's skills, interests, age,
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157 educational level and role (parents, teacher, pupils, ...): On the
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158 electronic side, we have projects with some cables, screwdrivers, a
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159 loudspeaker for little children; we have different soldering projects up
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160 to "build your own blinkenlight". On the talk-level, we have a basic
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161 introduction to privacy and some talks about social networks and
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162 interactions -- for pupils, for parents, for teachers. We need and have
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163 to address students of a different age in a different way. It's
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164 interesting how you can deliver the same message on different levels.
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167 > How have children navigated the learning curve?
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169 This is one of the biggest challenges of the project. We often do not
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170 know the level of the audience, how quick they will pick up new
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171 information and how much they can take at once. There's many factors we
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172 take into consideration like type of school, age, time of the day and if
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173 the audience came to us or is forced to listen to us by their teacher.
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174 To adjust to these levels is one of our most valuable skills we gather
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177 Though generally we are very impressed by the quick learning speed of
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178 young kids and their interest in the matter. Often enough it happens
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179 that we run out of time because the audience is engaging us in a
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180 discussion about the topic at hand. Sadly one workshop is usually just
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181 enough to show that there is an abundance of topics they never heard
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182 about and which interests them.
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184 Luckily, some of our groups are within a project which runs for over one
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185 year, teaching students on a regular basis. I'd say the children are
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186 reacting quite well on this approach.
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189 > The flash points of digital culture right now are ownership (being able
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190 > to unlock what you purchase) and privacy (secure communication absent of
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191 > unsolicited data gathering practiced by corporations). Both of these
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192 > important concepts are totally irrelevant to the average childs priority
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193 > set. Do these topics feature in the hacking camps, and if so how are
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194 > they relayed to a young audience?
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196 They are already part of our talks, e.g. about facebook and social
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197 networks in general. Usually I agree, the children do not care for these
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198 topics. But we usually make some games - examples - and try to let them
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199 find out what it means being public -- or not to "own" a piece of music.
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200 And we show them then alternatives or possibilities to still
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201 communicate, but without using the proprietary software and hardware of
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202 corporations, which have spying built-in for free.
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204 We are quite aware, that most people -- kids and grown-ups alike --
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205 won't stop using these after visiting a two hour workshop. However, we
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206 take pride in the fact, that they might take their time to actually
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207 decide themselves. We show them an other side, we teach them the
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208 necessary skills, but the decision is of their own. We can't force them
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212 [0] http://www.exacteditions.com/magazine/396/434
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213 [1] http://www.dazeddigital.com/
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projects / krt-msg / blob