From: Boris Kraut Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 15:16:45 +0100 Category: Message-ID: <20131224151645.NNDxsg@trauerweide> Organization: Keywords: Comments: To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Subject: [.plan] Interview im Dazed & Confused Magazine Reply-To: Boris Kraut Anfang des Jahres kam eine Anfrage von Stephen Fortune, Tech Editor beim Dazed&Confused Magazine [0], ob man von Seiten des "Chaos macht Schule"-Projekts zu einem Interview bereit waere. Wir haben damals natuerlich gern geantwortet, auch wenn es das ganze dann am Ende nicht in die finale Ausgabe (Juni 2013 bzw. "Hacktivism"-Sonderheft, wenn jemand nachschauen kann/will) oder DazedDigital [1] geschafft hat. Wie dem auch sei, hier ist die Rohversion aus dem Etherpad -- entsprechend koennen also noch viele Fehler, unuebersetzte Teile oder Arbeitskommentare drin sein, aber ich denke man kann damit etwas anfangen. Inhaltlich ist da einiges von mir drin, aber es gibt auch Fragen an denen ich ueberhaupt nicht mitgearbeitet habe. Ich glaube man kann mich aber ganz gut rauslesen: > What do children who participate in the hack camp learn? They learn about electronics, computer security, and media literacy. Our workshops range from soldering little electronic insects, music boxes and similar gadgets they can take home over real-life security demonstrations of email to plain talks and Q&A session about social networks, sharing music legally etc. > What tools/devices to they get to use? Well, it really depends on the age. Some never used a screwdriver, so we just let them open some pc (or other devices), look inside and connect/disconnect the cables, but most children will take a workshop on how to solder simple circuits with e.g. a battery, a resistor, a LED and a small motor. We love it when they built their own things and gadgets to take home with them: "It makes noise, it blinks and I have built it my own!" It can't get any better, can it? > Are educational video games used to communicate the concepts of > computer science? The whole educational community is going crazy about all those new shiny toys: MOOCs, video tutoring, gamification. We like those ideas and use them if it's appropriate. We also once had a visit by https://primerlabs.com/unityversity which was quite nice and looks interesting. However, while all these possibilities are great if you have or want to learn on your own, we deeply believe in "personal education", meaning that you have someone there to help and mentor you if needed. And one last thing: Just because it's about learning, doesn't mean it can't be the next Facebook. > What range of activities do they partake in over the course of the camp? The Camp is "only" the playground, the infrastructure for the visitors. Chaos macht Schule won't have a special project-place on the camp (as far as I know), but some members will be there and participate. > Do they learn how to unlock devices? Unlocking devices always has the risk of bricking them. Even if you tell attendees, some won't realize it. We don't want a kid which can't afford a new smartphone to leave with a unusable device afterwards. So, no, we don't do this with people who come by for only a 2 hr workshop. The main goal is not to show how to unlock anything; the main goal is to explain and let them understand how things work. If they find a way to creatively circumvent a lock (eg, the famous kingston lock with the paper tube), that's fine - but this isn't the goal of any workshop. > Will the Raspberry Pi feature prominently in this years camp? This years camp is organized by the Dutch hacker scene and the CCC only takes part in form of its members visiting. What will be presented at the camp depends mostly on its visitors. If there are people bringing their Raspberry Pi's and building awesome installations, then yes. The Pi is, in our eyes, just another tool; it is a great possibility to show and use physical computing, but not suitable for children who are only attending a 2hrs workshop where they should learn soldering or similar activities. It is great for learn how to program, though. Since we were in need for some easy-to-understand and easy-to-build hardware platform before the Raspberry Pi, a group of the CCC developed the so-called "Pentabug" (circuit design and software here: https://github.com/c3d2/pentabug), a small computer which can be assembled even by young kids; there is a fun default software which can be the basis for first programming experiments as well. > Are you still learning as you go, or do you bring in educators that > specialise in teaching coding to children? Chaos macht Schule is a project which is very good for 'new' hackers who do not trust their skills much yet. Because every little bit of knowledge we have is much more than any pupil in early middleschool has. So, yes, we learn as we go, especially the skills of how to work with kids and teach topics in an understandable way. However, some of our fellow hackers are indeed student and profressional teachers in their day-to-day life. > How much self reliance do kids learn from the camp? We'd like to see their self reliance going up and encourage them to explore things on their own, make mistakes and figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. However, there are some risks we have to advise and take proactive cautions against, e.g. dangers, like burning skin while soldering. We also make it clear, that (in the programming world) bad programs can affect performance or even destroy data -- not only for themselves, but for others, too. > CCC seems closely aligned to 'black hat' coding practices -- how is > that philosophy communicated to children? We don't see ourselves as blackhats. However, the picture of hackers in general might be different. So, especially when visiting schools and other public institutions, we are sometimes faced by fear. Teachers and parents have concerns, that we might show or do 'bad things', while the kids are eager to know 'how to hack' a computer game, a web services or the schools database. Usually we give both sides the whole run down on the difference between black and white hackers, the hacker ethics our club is based on and explain why we would do certain things, but not other things. We make it clear that our intent is not to break any laws or take personal advantage of the results of a hack, but to make the world a better place by showing flaws, spreading the word about it, discussing them widely and fixing them. Beyond that, our activities with young children focus on the creative side of life; they are about having fun with creating ones own hardware and software and about lowering the hurdle of getting in touch with technology. Children should see computer technology and electronics as building platform for creative and fun experiments, not as a magic black box. In discussions we try to "lead" the discussion a way that they find an ethical way by themselves -- don't do bad things to other persons you don't want to receive for yourself; or don't publish things just for the fun of it because it may hurt other people. It is one of our most important messages that there is a difference between hacking and Cracking - and that the philosophy of the club is and always was to protect private data and to publish/use public data. > Are children of different ages taught different things? While our overall goals and principles stay the same, we use different methods and subjects depending on the audience's skills, interests, age, educational level and role (parents, teacher, pupils, ...): On the electronic side, we have projects with some cables, screwdrivers, a loudspeaker for little children; we have different soldering projects up to "build your own blinkenlight". On the talk-level, we have a basic introduction to privacy and some talks about social networks and interactions -- for pupils, for parents, for teachers. We need and have to address students of a different age in a different way. It's interesting how you can deliver the same message on different levels. > How have children navigated the learning curve? This is one of the biggest challenges of the project. We often do not know the level of the audience, how quick they will pick up new information and how much they can take at once. There's many factors we take into consideration like type of school, age, time of the day and if the audience came to us or is forced to listen to us by their teacher. To adjust to these levels is one of our most valuable skills we gather by experience. Though generally we are very impressed by the quick learning speed of young kids and their interest in the matter. Often enough it happens that we run out of time because the audience is engaging us in a discussion about the topic at hand. Sadly one workshop is usually just enough to show that there is an abundance of topics they never heard about and which interests them. Luckily, some of our groups are within a project which runs for over one year, teaching students on a regular basis. I'd say the children are reacting quite well on this approach. > The flash points of digital culture right now are ownership (being able > to unlock what you purchase) and privacy (secure communication absent of > unsolicited data gathering practiced by corporations). Both of these > important concepts are totally irrelevant to the average childs priority > set. Do these topics feature in the hacking camps, and if so how are > they relayed to a young audience? They are already part of our talks, e.g. about facebook and social networks in general. Usually I agree, the children do not care for these topics. But we usually make some games - examples - and try to let them find out what it means being public -- or not to "own" a piece of music. And we show them then alternatives or possibilities to still communicate, but without using the proprietary software and hardware of corporations, which have spying built-in for free. We are quite aware, that most people -- kids and grown-ups alike -- won't stop using these after visiting a two hour workshop. However, we take pride in the fact, that they might take their time to actually decide themselves. We show them an other side, we teach them the necessary skills, but the decision is of their own. We can't force them to be free. [0] http://www.exacteditions.com/magazine/396/434 [1] http://www.dazeddigital.com/